Authorized by Kirtley for Delegate '97
Affirmative Action | Charter Schools | Reproductive Rights | Affirmative Action Revisited | US Rt. 29 Bypass | Parental Consent/Notification of Abortion | Environment | Ethical Campaigning | Education | Tobacco | Abortion | Western Bypass
B.G. (Bob
Gibson): Paul let me start the questioning with you. You said last week
that you oppose programs with racial preferences. Have you ever benefited
from affirmative action programs such as Upward Bound at the University
of Virginia which helps students prepare academically, and would you now
deny the benefits of any such federal or affirmative action programs to
others?
P.H. (Paul Harris): Well my belief is the American belief in affirmative
opportunity. Indeed I did attend the Upward Bound program at the University.
It's a great program, it's one that I would like, frankly, to see continued.
But before I ask, answer your question about affirmative action, I would
like for you to define the term affirmative action 'cause you get yourself
into trouble talking about terms that have different meanings. A teacher
once asked me to do a report on euthanasia and I showed up in class with
a report on eighteen year olds in China, so I need to know what you're talking
about when you say affirmative action.
B.G.: Well generally in Virginia those are programs that are run by the
individual colleges, such as the University of Virginia, which do not set
quotas, but do go out of their way to broaden the applicant pool so that
women and minorities are more included in the entering classes.
P.H.: Well I'm in favor of programs that cast a wide net, particularly within
education because universities come from, the term and the meaning of universities
is supposed to be universality, which includes all number of people from
different backgrounds and different races and different socioeconomic levels.
Frankly, I think, with regard to affirmative action the proper place ought
to be with emphasis on economic status, as opposed to race. I think, as
a country, we need to move away from the racial hostility that currently
permeates the American public, and I can see no justification for allowing
a preference to, for example, the son or grandson of Doug Wilder or Jesse
Jackson over a hard working kid from Belmont or Appalachia.
B.G.: Okay. Bruce, any comment on that?
B.K. (Bruce Kirtley): Well I think, I think there, there are two dynamics
to this question Bob, one is the question of programs such as Upward Bound
and I guess maybe we could throw Head Start into that as examples of programs
that are designed really to give young, men and women the opportunity to
excel to the utmost of their God-given ability. And to that end, I think
those types of programs have proven to be very beneficial and are programs
that we should continue with, and constantly work with to improve. In terms
of affirmative action, I think there's no question
that the first look, if you will, from a business man or a government agencies
or whatever, is we should be hiring people based on their qualifications.
But we are a diverse society and it would be preferable that the universities
and the law enforcement, for example, would mirror, to the extent that they
can, society itself. But you certainly don't want to hire someone because
of what they are but really who they are and their ability to perform the
job. So I am fundamentally opposed to quotas, but would like to see effort
to making sure that, as I said, agencies such as law enforcement were to
reflect society in general.
P.H.: See, if I could interject.
B.G.: Okay.
P.H.: The problem with affirmative action is you've got to be consistent
in your talk. Either you believe that folks ought to be hired based on their
qualifications or you don't. I do believe that. I also believe that we ought
to make affirmative efforts to make sure that everyone has a strong family
from which they, where they grow up with values, we need strong education
system with high standards, and we need to encourage private employers to
reach out and to embrace people from all backgrounds. What we've been doing
in the last twenty to thirty years in this country is attempting to fix
problems on the back end. I would prefer to see a greater concentration
of effort in fixing problems before they become problems. We have, in this
country, too much illegitimacy, we have too many broken families. We have
a welfare state that offers expensive opportunities for failure. If we have
strong families, if we have high education systems, if we have high schools
that are graduating folks that have the ability to apply cognitive skills
in the workplace, then we don't have to push people through a system based
on social promotion, and then require, on the back end, employers to hire
folks who graduate from schools with a sixth grade reading level, or with
no cognitive skills, or with no ability to apply the skills they learned
in high school. Let's fix the problems on the front end and stop wasting
our time as Americans and Virginians dividing each other, but focusing more
effort and more intellectual cavil in fixing problems on the front end.
B.G.: Paul, given those problems, you don't see any problem with continuing
Upward Bound and the other affirmative action programs at the University
of Virginia though.
P.H.: I'm not sure if I would actually characterize Upward Bound as an affirmative
action program. In my, when I went to Upward Bound there were, I don't recall
any white students being in the program. So I don't know if it's an affirmative
action program. I do think there are a lot of programs that are within the
purview of government that could and should continue, but it's not necessary
that they continue under the clutches of government bureaucracy. I think
there are ample opportunities to engage and invite businesses, to engage
and invite civic organizations and leaders within our communities to continue
these kinds of programs without relying on government to do it, but I think
the answer in the long run is that we have strong families, we have an education
system that has high standards, and then we don't have to put the burden
on employers of hiring folks that we've categorized for twelve years as
at-risk, for whom we've had low expectations, and then say to employers,
"You must hire a certain amount of these people in order to make your
workforce look more like society." I think that, frankly, is hypocritical
and logically inconsistent. I would prefer to see more focus on the front
end, and I would reach out to all groups, regardless of party, regardless
of race, and say, "Let's get to the core problem." Strong families,
high education systems and we'll have a better, more united America.
B.G.: Bruce,
you, like Paul, have a child who attends the private St. Ann's Belfield
School. Without sending your own child to public school, why would you deny
less wealthy parents the opportunity to send their kids to public charter
schools, or why would you criticize anyone politically for proposing public
charter schools? Paul said Wednesday, that was hypocritical. Does he have
a point?
B.K.: Well, Bob, my wife, Bonnie, and I have one son and, as you know, as
children are coming up and they make friends and so forth, when time came
for Whit to go to school, he wanted to go where his friends were and we
were in a position where we could accommodate that. We're pleased with the
education that he's received. It in no way is a commentary on public schools
in the area, as much as it is a decision that we made that we thought was
in our child's best interest. We're not denying that opportunity to anyone.
I'm just saying that I don't want someone else to have to pay for my child's
education if I choose to send him to a private school. It's fair to point
out that I am a member of the first graduating class of Jack Jouett High
School and also graduated from Albemarle High School, and obviously received
a very fine education there because that's reflected in my dual degrees
from the University of Richmond.
B.G.: Okay, Paul, any comment?
P.H.: I don't believe he answered the question. Should you repeat the question?
B.G.: The question is, is there any hypocrisy involved in criticizing a
candidate who proposes public charter schools when you yourself, as Paul
does, send your children to private schools.
P.H.: Yeah, I'd like for him to answer the question.
B.K.: Well I did answer the question. I don't see any hypocrisy there. Public
education is, especially in this area, we talk so much about Thomas Jefferson
and we look at the wonderful things that he did and wrote about, one of
the most overlooked things is the notion that public education and education
made available to all children is one of the hallmarks of this great country,
and the fact that I chose this route for my son, again, in no way reflects
in a negative way on public education because it is public education that
provides the level playing field, if you will, for the majority of the children
in this country. And
B.G.: How about charter schools though, is it, don't you join fellow Democrats
Don Beyer, L.F. Payne in supporting some form of public charter schools?
B.K.: The problems that I have with charter schools Bob, is that it seems
to be their schools and their rules and our money. Let me rive you a business
analogy if 1 can. If you were to set up a charter school, you maybe setting
up a school that ultimately would be set up for failure at the detriment
of the public school systems from which you're siphoning the money. There
may be some examples out there that we might want to look at. I know Paul
wrote an article in The Tribune about the Milwaukee charter school program,
and I'd be curious to see how he feels today about that experiment. We just
don't have the model to look at right now, and again, my fear is as we take
money away from public education, money that's sorely needed to work toward
smaller classroom sizes, computers in every classroom, to make sure that
we have guidance counselors and reading instructors, we need all the money
that we've got now and we don't need a system that takes money away.
B.G.: Paul?
P.H.: Where do I start. At the Bar Association meeting a couple of days
ago, I made a point of emphasizing that what I am talking about is public
charter schools. He's sitting here rambling on and on and on and on and
on about taking money from public schools and so forth and so on. Public
that's P U B L I C, just like Cale Elementary School, or Meriwether Lewis,
or Murray School, public charter schools would be within the purview of
the public school system. No taking money away, it's for adding an option
for parents. It provides parents a choice to send their children to a school
other than the one they're currently mandated to attend in our current public
school system. Now I am in full agreement that public schools is our top
priority in Virginia. I'm a product of the public schools, my wife is a
former public school teacher, there is no argument about that. But what
about, you know, every state official in this state, every state official
has to be prepared to answer the question, 'would you be ready to send your
child to the worst school in the Commonwealth of Virginia? And if not, what
options are you ready to provide in order to give the parents of that child
some choice in terms of where that child goes to school?" Charter schools
do that. They are freer, they allow more creativity, they involve parents,
the only requirements they have is that they be nondiscriminatory, that
they provide minimum standards of health and safety for the children, but
beyond that, the parents have a great deal of involvement in terms of what
the curriculum is, what the dress code is, and other areas of what the school
entails. Some charter schools focus on technology, others focus on the arts
it provides a range of choices and it's within the public school system,
so let's stop demagoging about taking money from the public school system
and giving, it to private schools. We're talking about schools that are
in the public school system and the notion that they are discriminatory
is just totally bogus. Of the hundreds of charter schools in this country
today, 63·,/o of them are attended by minorities. Girls and boys are equally
represented in these schools. 8 l % of the charter school students attended
public schools, 50· of the public charter school students were eligible
for free lunch, 20% of them have disability problems. These schools offer
options to parents and allow students to focus on concentrated areas where
they have particular gifts and particular talents. And I know it's hard
being a pessimist. It's not easy to find a problem in every solution. But
the only problem that we see now with charter schools across the country
is the waiting list of students who want to get in.
B.G: How about that concept Bruce? How about the concept of public charter
schools? Do you favor or oppose that?
B. K. Let me, let me just read to you briefly something that came out of
The Richmond Times this July 30th of this year. And in the body of the article
it says, and I quote, "Aimed at improving education, they, charter
schools are freed from most state or local curriculum requirements, but
are still publicly financed." That's part of the problem I have with
charter schools.
P.H.: [interrupts] Just like public schools are publicly financed.
B.K.: Taking the public money and
P.H.: [interrupts] Public schools are publicly financed.
B.K.: Let me finish if I could please. Taking the public money and freeing
them from the requirements
P.H.: [interrupts] Just like Cale or Murray or Meriwether Lewis.
B.K.: that are imposed on the public schools. No, you're missing the point.
Are you willing to accept that the Milwaukee experiment's been a good experiment
in charter schools?
P.H.: I want you to answer the question. Do you support charter schools?
It was asked of you ten minutes ago.
B.K.: No I don't.
P.H.: Okay, thank you.
B.K.: Do you consider the Milwaukee experiment a successful experiment?
Yes or no?
P.H.: Do I consider it, oh absolutely, yes I do, because
B.K.: Okay, good. Now let's look at something.
P.H.: As an experiment it allows us to learn where we have problems and
fix those problems, but you tell me, if Meriwether Lewis or in other public
schools, any other school within the public school system of Virginia breaks
down and doesn't work, where's the, what do we do with those schools?
B.K.: Okay, let me ask you this Paul.
P.H.: What do we do with those schools?
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Authorized by Kirtley for Delegate '97